9:05pm: Saddam is dead.
Justice for his victims.
Pass the fireworks.
posted by dreaminglily at
12/29/2006 08:16:00 PM
Friday, December 29
A Monster is Dead
Justice for his victims.
Pass the fireworks.
Justice for his victims.
Pass the fireworks.
Click song to hear music
About Me
- Name: dreaminglily
- Location: Minnesota, United States
I'm currently 20 years old (as of Nov 22nd, 2007) and working for my parent's business. I answer phones and do paperwork. But that's not who I am. I'm interested in business and specifically real estate and marketing. I haven't gone to college yet but will eventually. I've been with my boyfriend (Will, William) for 3 years last September. He's graduating this spring and will be moving here shortly after where we hope to get a place in the Cities. (I live near the Twin Cities in Minnesota.) I was raised mostly in the south, spent my early childhood in specifically Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas. I was raised on a carnival and I'm not ashamed of it, my parents worked hard and were honest. It opened my eyes to a lot of the world and forced me to grow up. I've lived in a total of 23 states. If you want to know my personality, try reading an entry.
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--John Steinbeck
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5 Comments:
Lily, Let's think about this a bit. I will preface my remarks by saying I am against the death penalty. But, further, I think we perhaps get into some trouble when we rejoice over the death of another person, even one as cruel as Saddam. The world is much more complicated than it seems. Americans, and American leaders, are also guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity. When we rejoice over Saddam's death, we take a chance of falling into an "us" and "them" mentality. I don't condone inhumanity, of course not. But what about the beam in my own eye? Celebrating any death is a place I don't want to go. I know you are Christian. I'm not, but I respect the teachings of Christ. I can't see Him wanting us to celebrate such; I think rather He would want us to turn inward and reflect on how we can be better people. Just my thoughts, Sweetie.
I understand what you're saying. But (the imminent "but") I can't agree. Not on this case. Talking to Iraqis, seeing the pictures and video of the women and men and children he put through meat grinders alive, the videos from when he gassed and bombed thousands of innocent lives... Sorry, at that point I cease believing a person such as that is a person. My immediate thoughts go to "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth."
Christ may not have believed in killing, but he didn't teach us to lay down and let murders get away with it. He also taught us to respect our government's judgements, even when we don't agree.
Just making my argument, I do respect your position.
And no, just in case anyone wonders, I don't think this will bring peace. But I do think it brings hope to people who thought their dictator would come back to power.
Lily, the death penalty is something I've thought and read a great deal about. For several years, I asked my freshmen comp students to do an argumentative essay on that topic. Many of my students have held the same views that you do and I have helped them to shape their arguments to make them stronger pro death penalty arguments, even though I disagreed with their position at a fundamental level. Here are some reasons why your argument isn't convincing to me (although I do respect your view):
1. You said: "Sorry, at that point I cease believing a person such as that is a person."
My argument would be to think about other leaders, many American leaders, in fact, who have done similar things but who are considered heroes today. Andrew Jackson killed women and children among the Native Americans. He sliced the skin off their bodies and his men wore it over their boots as leggings. Closer to our times, Truman ordered the dropping of the atomic bomb, killing thousands in horrific ways. Robert McNamara, American leader and architect of WWII and Vietnam War policy, among others, admits that if America had lost WWII, our leaders would have been condemned of war crimes and executed. Is Truman a monster? Jackson? McNamara? Do you see where I am going? Your argument inherently sets up an "Us" and "Them" argument. Our leaders are not monsters because, you imply, "we" are justified in our actions and "they" are not.
During the Vietnam war, millions of Vietnamese women, children, and babies were ordered to be killed. During the first Gulf War, America dropped uranium tipped missiles that have poisoned and killed countless children: there are girls as young as 9 years old who have had hysterectomies and mastectomies due to cancer because of these missiles. Aren't the leaders responsible for this "monsters"? Yet leaders who have done these things are more often called heroes by us. Why is that? How are they different than Saddam? Is there a different standard for Americans? Are they more of "a person" than Saddam?
2. "An Eye for an Eye" is from the Old Testament. What you are talking about is really old fashioned revenge. The OT was written during a time of hyper-tribalism. From my understanding, Christ made a new covenant with humans. It is hard to use OT scripture to justify the death penalty. The OT proscribes the death penalty for children who disrespect their parents. But we've decided this isn't how we wish to live. America is the only democratic nation to have the death penalty. Europe and Canada banned the death penalty years ago. We share this form of "justice" with some middle Eastern countries and some Asian countries.
3. "He also taught us to respect our government's judgements, even when we don't agree."
According to this argument, all people would have to accept the whims of their leaders. This would include Saddam's people, right? Should they have accepted their government's judgments (Saddam's) even if they disagreed? Or is America different? More moral than Saddam? It is good for us to accept our government's judgments, but not for Saddam's people?
4. "but he didn't teach us to lay down and let murders get away with it"
I never said we should lay down and let murderers "get away" with anything. There are many forms of justice; I don't agree with killing as a form of justice. When does it stop? Coretta Scott King, Martin Luther King's wife, was against the death penalty. She thought the death penalty was evil. Following Christ's example, she said the only way to stop the chain of evil was to practice non violence collectively. Her husband believed the same. So did Bobby Kennedy, whose brother Jack Kennedy was assassinated. I believe the only way to truly change the world is to practice compassion and to refrain from killing to the extent that we are able.
Saddam should have been incapacitated, absolutely. But when we kill the "monsters" of the world, we think we have rid the world of evil, not realizing our own participation in it. All humans have a capacity for evil.
How would you bolster your own arguments to make them stronger, Lily? Just some food for thought, and practice for when you get to college! :-)
Theresa, I didn't go through all my reasons for why I believe what I do. I have thought about it a long time and it's a strong conviction of mine based in my sense of faith and my convictions of right and wrong, lines which can be blurred.
I didn't, however, create this blog to be a political platform for my positions so I'm going to keep this short by saying that this isn't the time or place for me to discuss this. I will reply to you in private what I wish not to say in public.
I want to state one thing, and one thing only, I don't glorify death, I don't think it's beautiful or something to be celebrated. That's not what my comment was about.
Amazing what can bloom out of three short sentences.
~Lily
Well, Lily,
1. Your three sentences say a lot. It was a startling assertion to make, and it is taking a political stand. I was only making a point that when you make such a dramatic statement, you are bound to attract attention and a certain amount of questions from people might be reasonable. You are right that it is your blog, but it is a public document, too, and people will be bound to disagree with you. Once you let that Genie out of the bottle, it is hard to put it back.
We all do have a right to our opinions. Opinions are vague assertions; they are not arguments, that is true. But such a startling opinion as this one almost beg for more explanation.
I only meant to suggest that you might want to think about where your opinion is coming from.
This is from an academic standpoint entirely, not a personal one. :-)
2. I never said that you glorify death, but you did suggest that you meant to celebrate Saddam's death. Isn't this what you mean by "Pass the fireworks"? Or did I read this wrong? Maybe I have been a teacher too long! LOL
As always, I love your blog, Lily. Such a beautiful template and it is a source of pleasure for me to watch your growth and to see you turning into such a fine young woman!
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